Srebrenica: You Have Never Heard About the First Srebrenica

"....2,383 Serb civilians who were killed between 1992 and July, 1995. So then we’d call that 'The First Srebrenica Massacre'” - Dr E Herman

West Ignored Over 2,000 Serbians Slaughtered During the First Srebrenica Massacre

http://www.geopolitika.rs/index.php/en/component/content/article/248-eng/english-content/sample-english-subcategory/555-john-robles-serbs-fight-fire-with-fire

THIS IS AN EXCERPT FROM AN INTERVIEW I GAVE TO GEOPOLITIKA

The pretext for the attack was based on the supposed massacre of Bosnian-Muslims by Serbs at Srebrenica, which was a complete lie. Sure the Serbian Army attacked soldiers there, but it ignored the over 2,000 Serbian mostly women and children who were slaughtered at Srebrenica before the Serbian Army went in. The fabrication that went into portraying the Srebrenica massacre as Serb aggression was colossal in nature. NATO and the U.S. ignored this because they had other plans for the region and had already demonized Serbia for the sole reason that it was leaning towards Russia.

American author Edward Herman , who I had a chance to interview on the Voice of Russia, has done the best work I have seen in debunking the Srebrenica massacre lies. He exposed all of the lies at Srebrenica. Like the lie of 9-11 with its lack of airplane wreckage, Srebrenica had a lack of Muslim bodies. There was a proper military operation launched at Srebrenica after the execution of over 2,000 Serbian women and children against the Muslim butchers and aggressors.

It is mindboggling how the U.S. and NATO supported the Bosnian Muslim killers. At the time it was extremely strange for many people in the U.S. how the U.S. was supporting Muslims there while demonizing them everywhere else. That was the first odd thing.

When I was a kid and back in the 70s, 80s, and 90s white gangs would go around and beat up Muslims and anyone who had a Middle Eastern appearance, many times killing them, and the government would always push anti-Muslim propaganda and tell the nation how evil and dangerous these Muslims were. This was true of all minorities but Muslims in particular.

All of the military actions against Muslim countries were presented in this manner and they also turned out to be lies, and the lie that the U.S. government was against fanatical Muslim killers was made clear at Srebrenica, when the U.S. supported those very Muslims. Whether the entire Srebrenica massacre was organized from the beginning by the U.S. would not be surprising.

I think it is important to note when discussing U.S. usage of Islamic terrorists that the CIA in fact first created and then funded and armed Al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden from their very inception, a fact that was well documented by a journalist named Orlin Grabbe who had to leave the U.S. and died a few years ago. He uncovered the fact that Osama Bin Laden had entered the U.S. and toured U.S. military installations as a guest of the CIA under the name of Tom Ossman. He was recruited to fight the USSR during the Soviet stabilization mission in Afghanistan. It is also important to note that the USSR was asked to intervene by the government of Afghanistan and actually built most of the infrastructure of the country and brought peace to Afghanistan.

John Robles II

Update: We do not deny that Bosnians were killed. We merely investigated and reported on ALL of the circumstances surrounding the NATO Casus Belli for bombing Yugoslavia. It is the West that is criminally deny the initial Genocide of Serbians. They are so afraid of the the truth that they go to these measures and have even killed Dr Herman. They can continue and we will speak even louder.

  The Srebrenica Massacre was a Gigantic Political Fraud - Dr Edward Herman (RIP)

http://www.jar2.com/Interviews/Edward_Herman.html

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Doctor Edward Herman on Srebrenica - Robles_Herman_Part_1.MP3

Originally Published on the Voice of Russia World Service http://www.jar2.com/VOR/John_Robles_VOR_2013.html

http  voiceofrussia  com/2013_01_31/The-Srebrenica-massacre-was-a-gigantic-political-fraud-exclusive-interview/

January 31, 2013

Renowned author Dr. Edward Herman spoke with the John Robles regarding the facts surrounding the Srebrenica Massacre, the pretext for the "humanitarian" invasion of the former Yugoslavia, and takes apart the "official" version that has always been promoted by the West. Dr. Herman reveals that there were in fact multiple massacres at Srebrenica, and that the killing of Bosnian-Muslim soldiers at Srebrenica (the West's pretext) was in response to the killing of over 2,000 Serb civilians, mostly women and children, at the location.

http://projectcensored.org/heartfelt-thank-edward-herman/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_S._Herman

http://www.lausti.com/articles/hermancont.html

Robles: My first question is about “The Srebrenica Massacre” and the way that the establishment manipulated the media. Can you tell us, or give us some insights, on that?

Herman: The Srebrenica Massacre, actually I always put it in quote marks, because actually there were lots of massacres in the Srebrenica area, the one before July 1995 there were vast numbers of Serbs killed by Muslim, Bosnian Muslim, forces who went out of Srebrenica.

One estimate is that there were more than 150 Serbs villages that were totally wiped out and one study gives actually gives the names of 2,383 Serb civilians who were killed between 1992 and July, 1995. So then we’d call that “The First Srebrenica Massacre”. Then in July 1995…

Robles: Just to be very clear, these were Serbs, that were being killed.

Herman: Yes! We’re talking about 2,383 Serb civilians killed before July 1995. And the Bosnian Serb Army took over Srebrenica in July, 1995, and there were deaths and executions after that. That’s what’s called in the West “The Srebrenica Massacre”, but, in fact, that’s really mainly a political construct.

The numbers executed there were probably in the order of between 500 and 1,000. In other words, less than half of the number of Serbs civilians killed before July, 1995.

And the Western claim is that 8,000 men and boys were executed in the quote Srebrenica massacre, but notice these were men, always men, all men, they were all soldiers, whereas those 2,383 civilians killed included very large numbers of women and children.

We’re talking about the execution in the Second Massacre of essentially army people. And of course they had never proved that there were 7,000 or 8,000, even men and boys killed. The bodies in the graves added up to something like 2,500.

A lot of those bodies were combat deaths. One of the beauties of the Western propaganda system is that all the bodies they found after July, 1995, they count as executed, even though we know very well that a large number were killed in combat.

Reminder

Herman: Also another important fact about the Srebrenica massacre is that all those killings of Serbs took place coming out of an area that was supposed to be a “safe haven”. Srebrenica was a safe place, a safe haven. It was supposed to be demilitarized, but it never was.

So the Bosnian Muslim soldiers would come out to Srebrenica and they would kill Serb civilians. This is all completely ignored in the Western media. It’s as if the Serbs came in July and started to kill arbitrarily.

In fact, the U.N. military in that area, a French Offical name Phillip Movion, was asked by the Yugoslav tribunal, “Why the Serbs did it?”

He said he’s absolutely convinced that they did it because of what the commander of Srebrenica’s Bosnian Muslims did to the Serbs before July 1995.

This is the UN Army head, but you won’t see that in the Western press!

In other words, the first massacre is what led to the lesser second massacre of namely military aged people.

The whole business of the Srebrenica Massacre is a gigantic political fraud. There was a massacre, but it was a responsive vengeance massacre, women and children were not killed.

One of the features of the “quote” Srebrenica Massacre, that is the second one, is that 20,000 Srebrenica women and children were bussed to safety by the Serb army. Women and children were not killed, only military aged people and a very large fraction of those that did die, died in combat.

So my own estimate, as I said, is that maybe there were 500 to 1,000 executions. Vengeance executions.

Robles: I’m sorry. How many?

Herman:500 to 1,000 I would say.

Robles: 500 to 1,000.

Herman:Yes. So there was a significant massacre, but put it in its context! This was a war, this was an army that had seen their own civilians massacred on a much larger scale. That is completely suppressed in the West, as if the Serbs came in to Srebrenica and started to kill because of a blood lust! It’s absolutely a fraud!

So, I regard the Srebrenica massacre as a tremendous propaganda triumph. The West wanted to go after Serbia and they avoided peace. They needed this massacre.

Robles: You said, about 2,380 civilians, women and children mainly…

Herman:Serbian women and children, yes.

Robles: … were killed initially. This was the Srebrenica…

Herman:The first massacrebetween 1992 and July 1995. These were Serb civilians. There were also hundreds of Serb military killed in that period, I am just talking about civilians!

Robles: The civilians, right! And then in retaliation approximately 2,500 Muslim… Bosnian Muslims soldiers were killed.

That’s misleading, because the thrust of the 8,000 claim is that they were executed but those 2000-plus that were killed, a very large fraction were killed in combat.

Robles: In combat. Okay, I see. I see.

Herman:Yes, and the executions were, as I say probably in the order of 500 to 1,000.

Robles: Okay. So those were Bosnian Muslims who were found to be directly responsible for killing massive numbers of Serbian civilians. Right?

Herman:The Serbs actually had lists of Bosnian Muslim soldiers they wanted to get, but I can’t honestly say they were the only ones who were executed. But certainly, a significant number of those executed were on those lists, those vengeance lists.

Robles: You said the West wanted, or the United States, wanted a reason to get Serbia. What exactly were those reasons?

Herman: After the fall of the Soviet Union, the West: the United States and its allies, no longer wanted to support an independent Yugoslavia. It was a social-democratic state, it was relatively independent and they didn’t want it to continue and would prefer to have it broken into pieces which they could control.

So, they encouraged Slovenia and the Bosnian Muslims, in Bosnia, and the Croatians, they encouraged them to leave Yugoslavia. And the only ones who wanted to keep Yugoslavia together were the Serbs. So, the Serbs did try to keep them together but there was mutual fighting and there were efforts to settle the whole business and let them exit more or less peaceably, but the West sabotaged those agreements.

This is a famous set of episodes, there was an attempt called the Lisbon Agreement in 1992, to sort of solve some of the problems with peaceful resolution and the Bosnian Muslims were encouraged by the United States to reject that agreement.

So, they fought one another mutually trying to establish land control and this caused the tremendous amount of killings. The Srebrenica massacre was part of this mutual ethnic cleansing and struggle for land control. But behind it all was the fact that the West supported the dismantling of Yugoslavia. And the Serbs were their enemy because the Serbs opposed this dismantling. So, the Serbs were the victims of all the West’s activity.

Most important, possibly, apart from the sabotaging of this peace agreement, was the setup of Yugoslavia Tribunal. And the Tribunal was, and remains a complete instrument of NATO and the United States and it went almost entirely after Serbs, and it actually helped to sabotage peace. It was really a phony judicial arm of NATO with the Serbs as victims.

And so, eventually they went after Milosevic. All these efforts of the Tribunal were the dismantling of Yugoslavia in a proper political light. If you could criminalize all the Serb leaders, you could prove that Serbia was the bad guy and that NATO and its activities, including the bombing war against Kosovo, that NATO would look like it was engaging in humanitarian intervention, here it had this judicial backup of the Yugoslav Tribunal which was a fraud, which was a travesty.

There is a wonderful book by John Laughland entitled “Travesty”. It is a study of the Yugoslav Tribunal and its devastating. Actually another good book is by Michael Mandel called “How America Gets Away with Murder” which also has a very good discussion of the Tribunal and International Criminal Court, and the extent to which they are effectively arms of the West, they are not judicial institutions at all, really Public Realtions arms of the West.

Robles: After WW II there was an agreement not to reorganize Europe. And I’ve read some material saying that Yugoslavia was the first experiment for the US in their game of geopolitical chess to reestablish or redefine the borders of Europe. Do you think that was successful and where do you think that has led us today?

Herman: I think it was a very successful operation from the standpoint of the United States and NATO, because this independent social-democratic entity was destroyed by the West and it left a series of states that are dependent on the United States and the West. Serbia which was once an independent state is now a groveling, kind of pathetic failed state. It was failed, by the bombing and by the long blockade or sanctions against Serbia, it is now groveling before the West trying to get into the European Union. It was dismantled and taken apart.

Robles: There are “some” people in Serbia, who are as you say, groveling for the West. But there is a large percentage of Serbians who know the reality of what happened and really, hate the West because they know that their country was destroyed.

Herman: I agree with you completely. I’m talking about the people who run this, those in power. It is true that there is a very significant minority, or maybe it is even a majority…

Robles: I think it is a majority, but you just said the key words there “those in power”. Right!

Herman: You know, I think that the vast number of Serbs are resentful of what has been done to them. But the West has arranged and the power structure has been fixed so that the friends of the West retain political power and they do the groveling.

Robles: And there is so much of a media blackout of anything that counters that “evil Serb” stereotype that they promoted in the West.

Herman: Absolutely, yes. The standard procedure of the United States and the NATO powers is to demonize whoever they are going to go after. So, Milosevic was made into a devil and the Serbs were made into an evil population. And of course the Bosnian Muslims loved that and latched onto that and they are still using it to achieve some of their aims. Countries finds it extremely difficult to throw off the burden of demonization and hatred by the West.

After we crushed Vietnam, we allegedly lost that war, but we damaged Vietnam horribly, we actually succeeded in maintaining an 18 year boycott of this victim to whom we ought to have been paying huge reparations. We actually should be paying gigantic reparations to Serbia for the illegal bombing war. But the West does this demonization and the demon charge hangs on.

So, each successful target you find this demonization process at work and the hypocrisy involved here is absolutely mindboggling because sometimes you have us changing our mind in mid-stream as with Saddam Hussein, when he was warring against Iran in the 1980s, he was a friend of the United States and they actually provided him with weapons of mass destruction. And then he became worse than Hitler. But the media doesn’t stress this and avoid it, they ignore the fact that he was our ally and then the next day he is a demon.

Robles: Same thing with Muammar Gaddafi, I mean he became a friend, again, what you were saying. Disarm! Disarm! Ok, he disarmed. The same with Hussein, he disarmed.

Herman: I don’t think we ever really loved Gaddafi or Assad but we did get along with them at least for a while. But Gaddafi was always a handy villain we could turn to, like in a Lockerbie case, that was really an amazing business, because after Pan Am 103 was shot down.

Robles: Sure! Do you think he was behind that? Do you believe that?

Herman: No, absolutely not! Right off the bat. The shoot down of Pan Am 103 followed by six months the United States shooting down an Iranian airliner killing 290 people. And six months after that there was Lockerbie, the Pan Am 103, so everybody knew. And in fact the CIA claimed for two years it was clear fact that Iran and Syria had been behind that bombing.

But the geopolitics changed and suddenly we were having to deal with Saddam Hussein, we needed Iran and Syria to be our temporary friends and Gaddafi was brought into the picture. The convenient villain. I’m totally sure, I’ve studied that Lockerbie case and it had nothing whatsoever to do with the shooting down of Pan Am 103.

But it is like the Srebrenica massacre. The capability of the West and the media to manipulate facts, and the CIA to manipulate facts and demonize, and have an effective case against whomever we have demonized, it is amazing how the West does this.

The West is Adept at Demonizing Whoever They Want to Go After

Doctor Edward Herman on Srebrenica -  Robles_Herman_Part_2.MP3

February 24, 2013 15:59  Download audio file

Renowned author Dr. Edward Herman spoke with the Voice of Russia's John Robles regarding the facts surrounding the Srebrenica Massacre. In part 2 of the full interview Dr. Herman speaks about how the West, the CIA and NATO manipulate the media to demonize whoever they want to attack and how friends become evil enemies at the drop of a hat. His opinion of the War Crimes Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia is something you have to listen to or read for yourself. Enjoy.

Hello! This is John Robles, I’m speaking with Dr. Edward Herman. He is a Professor Emeritus of Finance at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. And he is also the author of several books, namely “The Manufacturing of Consent”, he wrote that with the Noam Chomsky, and “The Srebrenica Massacre: Evidence, Context and Politics”.

Robles: You said the West wanted, or the United States, wanted a reason to get Serbia. What exactly were those reasons?

Herman: After the fall of the Soviet Union, the West: the United States and its allies, no longer wanted to support an independent Yugoslavia. It was a social-democratic state, it was relatively independent and they didn’t want it to continue and would prefer to have it broken into pieces which they could control.

So, they encouraged Slovenia and the Bosnian Muslims, in Bosnia, and the Croatians, they encouraged them to leave Yugoslavia. And the only ones who wanted to keep Yugoslavia together were the Serbs. So, the Serbs did try to keep them together but there was mutual fighting and there were efforts to settle the whole business and let them exit more or less peaceably, but the West sabotaged those agreements.

This is a famous set of episodes, there was an attempt called the Lisbon Agreement in 1992, to sort of solve some of the problems with peaceful resolution and the Bosnian Muslims were encouraged by the United States to reject that agreement.

So, they fought one another mutually trying to establish land control and this caused the tremendous amount of killings. The Srebrenica massacre was part of this mutual ethnic cleansing and struggle for land control. But behind it all was the fact that the West supported the dismantling of Yugoslavia. And the Serbs were their enemy because the Serbs opposed this dismantling. So, the Serbs were the victims of all the West’s activity.

Most important, possibly, apart from the sabotaging of this peace agreement, was the setup of Yugoslavia Tribunal. And the Tribunal was, and remains a complete instrument of NATO and the United States and it went almost entirely after Serbs, and it actually helped to sabotage peace. It was really a phony judicial arm of NATO with the Serbs as victims.

And so, eventually they went after Milosevic. All these efforts of the Tribunal were the dismantling of Yugoslavia in a proper political light. If you could criminalize all the Serb leaders, you could prove that Serbia was the bad guy and that NATO and its activities, including the bombing war against Kosovo, that NATO would look like it was engaging in humanitarian intervention, here it had this judicial backup of the Yugoslav Tribunal which was a fraud, which was a travesty.

There is a wonderful book by John Laughland entitled “Travesty”. It is a study of the Yugoslav Tribunal and its devastating. Actually another good book is by Michael Mandel called “How America Gets Away with Murder” which also has a very good discussion of the Tribunal and International Criminal Court, and the extent to which they are effectively arms of the West, they are not judicial institutions at all, really Public Realtions arms of the West.

Robles: After WW II there was an agreement not to reorganize Europe. And I’ve read some material saying that Yugoslavia was the first experiment for the US in their game of geopolitical chess to reestablish or redefine the borders of Europe. Do you think that was successful and where do you think that has led us today?

Herman: I think it was a very successful operation from the standpoint of the United States and NATO, because this independent social-democratic entity was destroyed by the West and it left a series of states that are dependent on the United States and the West. Serbia which was once an independent state is now a groveling, kind of pathetic failed state. It was failed, by the bombing and by the long blockade or sanctions against Serbia, it is now groveling before the West trying to get into the European Union. It was dismantled and taken apart.

Robles: There are “some” people in Serbia, who are as you say, groveling for the West. But there is a large percentage of Serbians who know the reality of what happened and really, hate the West because they know that their country was destroyed.

Herman: I agree with you completely. I’m talking about the people who run this, those in power. It is true that there is a very significant minority, or maybe it is even a majority…

Robles: I think it is a majority, but you just said the key words there “those in power”. Right!

Herman: You know, I think that the vast number of Serbs are resentful of what has been done to them. But the West has arranged and the power structure has been fixed so that the friends of the West retain political power and they do the groveling.

Robles: And there is so much of a media blackout of anything that counters that “evil Serb” stereotype that they promoted in the West.

Herman: Absolutely, yes. The standard procedure of the United States and the NATO powers is to demonize whoever they are going to go after. So, Milosevic was made into a devil and the Serbs were made into an evil population. And of course the Bosnian Muslims loved that and latched onto that and they are still using it to achieve some of their aims. Countries finds it extremely difficult to throw off the burden of demonization and hatred by the West.

After we crushed Vietnam, we allegedly lost that war, but we damaged Vietnam horribly, we actually succeeded in maintaining an 18 year boycott of this victim to whom we ought to have been paying huge reparations. We actually should be paying gigantic reparations to Serbia for the illegal bombing war. But the West does this demonization and the demon charge hangs on.

So, each successful target you find this demonization process at work and the hypocrisy involved here is absolutely mindboggling because sometimes you have us changing our mind in mid-stream as with Saddam Hussein, when he was warring against Iran in the 1980s, he was a friend of the United States and they actually provided him with weapons of mass destruction. And then he became worse than Hitler. But the media doesn’t stress this and avoid it, they ignore the fact that he was our ally and then the next day he is a demon.

Robles: Same thing with Muammar Gaddafi, I mean he became a friend, again, what you were saying. Disarm! Disarm! Ok, he disarmed. The same with Hussein, he disarmed.

Herman: I don’t think we ever really loved Gaddafi or Assad but we did get along with them at least for a while. But Gaddafi was always a handy villain we could turn to, like in a Lockerbie case, that was really an amazing business, because after Pan Am 103 was shot down.

Robles: Sure! Do you think he was behind that? Do you believe that?

Herman: No, absolutely not! Right off the bat. The shoot down of Pan Am 103 followed by six months the United States shooting down an Iranian airliner killing 290 people. And six months after that there was Lockerbie, the Pan Am 103, so everybody knew. And in fact the CIA claimed for two years it was clear fact that Iran and Syria had been behind that bombing.

But the geopolitics changed and suddenly we were having to deal with Saddam Hussein, we needed Iran and Syria to be our temporary friends and Gaddafi was brought into the picture. The convenient villain. I’m totally sure, I’ve studied that Lockerbie case and it had nothing whatsoever to do with the shooting down of Pan Am 103.

But it is like the Srebrenica massacre. The capability of the West and the media to manipulate facts, and the CIA to manipulate facts and demonize, and have an effective case against whomever we have demonized, it is amazing how the West does this.

That was the end of part 2.

Srebrenica: 19-Year-Blueprint for US Intervention - Stefan Karganovic

Professor Stephen Karganovic on Srebrenica -  07092014_Robles_Karganovic_Part_01.MP3

http://www.jar2.com/Interviews/Stephen_Karganovic.html

On July 11, 1995, two NATO warplanes bombed Serbian forces, advancing on Srebrenica. But due to the bad weather and the fact that Serbian forces were holding French and Dutch prisoners of war, NATO called off what was to be a massive bombing campaign. Late in the afternoon, Serbian general Mladic and other commanders entered into Srebrenica. They had won, for the moment. This loss NATO could not accept and through indirect manipulation and false representation of the facts, US and NATO slandered the Serbs and successfully changed the historical facts in an attempt to seek a legal and realistic presentation for a legal military operation. I interviewed Stephen Karganovic for the defunct Voice of Russia World Service on the history of Srebrenica in this special interview on the nineteenth anniversary of those events.

Hello, this is John Robles, I am speaking with Stephen Karganovic, he is the president of the Srebrenica Historical Project.

Robles : Hello sir, how are you this evening?

Karganovic: I am fine, thank you very much.

Robles : We have an anniversary of a very tragic event coming up on July, 11. Some might say it was a part of or the beginning of the rule of international lawlessness and wanton impunity by the architects of Yugoslavia’s and Serbia’s destruction by the US and NATO. Why do you think that is important and give us some of the history, please?

Karganovic: Yes, it is definitely what you have just said and it has become the starting point for a process in international relations. I wouldn’t quite say in international law because, as you correctly put it, the process involves the breakdown of law, lawlessness in fact. What happened was that Srebrenica became a propaganda paradigm that was then used to justify military interventions under the guise of the “right to protect” and as a result it served as the rationale for a couple of very destructive military adventures: Kosovo in 1999, and Iraq, then Libya, and now in Syria, and who knows what is next, and the basic rationale for all these adventures was “We must prevent another Srebrenica”.

Well, the ironic thing is that the death toll in Srebrenica, if you take it at its highest, would be about 8,000. And as you and your listeners, probably, know, the death toll in each of these interventions was far more than that. If you are talking about Syria, you can add another zero to the Srebrenica 8,000 and you probably still would not come close to the carnage that occurred there over the last three years. I just might remind you that it was motivated in large part by the presumed need to “prevent another Srebrenica” as the forces of the current president there supposedly were slaughtering their own people. Much the same thing happened in Libya. According to some estimates, the death toll in Libya was 40,000 or 50,000, a bit more modest, and needless to say in Iraq it was enormous. The figure is still controversial, but nobody puts it at less than 100,000 and some estimates go as far as a million, and so on and so forth.

Oh yes, let’s not forget Kosovo. There the death toll was relatively modest but you have to calculate the impact of depleted uranium bombs that were dispersed all over the country and that over the next couple of thousand years will be killing every living thing there, and people are already massively dying of cancer. So you can imagine that too should be attributed to the “humanitarian intervention” that was conducted there.

So Srebrenica has huge geopolitical implications. I am not saying that there was an idea to turn it into that, but it was an opportunistic move. The potential for Srebrenica, once it took shape as a propaganda concept, to serve in that role as the rationale for future “humanitarian interventions” was seen and seized upon. So that would be part of the answer to your question.

The other part is what actually happened in Srebrenica: there is no doubt that what happened was a massacre. That is not controversial. What is controversial - how many people were killed and – even more important – the legal character of the crime that was committed. As you and your listeners are aware, by now whenever the word “Srebrenica” is mentioned we are all indoctrinated to associate it with genocide. That is precisely the way it works, and in its geopolitical application that I mentioned earlier that is the key point. Whenever they get ready to bomb a country and take it over for its resources they say “Well, we have to prevent the genocide that is being perpetrated by the local rulers, so we have to remove them and install a group of people that would be friendly to us and willing to obey our orders”. And – of course – deliver the goods that we covet in that particular country.

So genocide is a very important point when you are talking about Srebrenica and it so happens that, the judgments of the Hague Tribunal takes place, notwithstanding, no evidence was produced for genocide after about half a dozen or more Srebrenica trials. So what we can say with a fair degree of certainty is that after a bitter inter-communal war in that part of Bosnia that lasted for about three years the Serbs took over Srebrenica, and some of them took the law into their own hands, so to speak, and decided to take revenge for all the people on their side that, previous to that, were murdered in raids that were conducted by the units of the Bosnian Muslim army that were operating from Srebrenica. That doesn’t justify a single murder, but it explains it in a far better way than the idea of genocide. There was no intention of exterminating Bosnian Muslims. The most that happened there was that neighbors were very angry at other neighbors and they decided to let them have it for what they had been doing to them over the previous three years. In three or four days they killed, we estimate, up to a thousand Muslim prisoners, which is without the slightest justification, but certainly it was not genocide and there is no forensic or any other type of evidence to support the figure of 8,000 executed prisoners that you hear about all the time.

Robles : What was the actual number, then?

Karganovic: We can only go by the forensic investigations that were conducted by experts of the Hague Tribunal, of the Prosecution, between 1996, beginning right after the massacre that occurred in 1995, and their exhumations of mass graves that went on until 2001. In that period they uncovered the physical remains of about 1,920 individuals. However, we then looked at the pattern of injury. That is very important because at the same time that this massacre of prisoners was going on another significant event was occurring as well. The division of the Bosnian Muslim army that was in Srebrenica was conducting a military breakout from Srebrenica to Muslim-held territory in Tuzla, which is about 60 kilometers away. Along their way they had many clashes with Serbian forces, which used guns and other implements of war, as they were entitled to do, against the military column. As a result of these clashes, thousands of Muslim soldiers and the civilians who were with them were killed, and I just want to make the point that when you have a mixed military-civilian column, the opposing army is entitled to shoot at it. That is not a war crime, it is a legitimate military operation, so everyone that was killed in the breakout of the Muslim army unit was a legitimate casualty, which sounds very bad, I know, in human terms, and it is, but in international law terms that is the way it is. What they have been doing, in effect, was to exhume the graves where the casualties from the fighting were buried and then they would use them to reinforce the numbers of those who were really executed, in order to boost the figure, essentially. So that’s what has been going on.

Robles : Thank you very much for that detailed answer. Now, would you characterize Srebrenica. Not by itself, but the entire situation surrounding it, as a blueprint for what we are seeing now in multiple countries, in particular in Ukraine?

Karganovic: Well, it is different and yet there are striking similarities.

Robles : But the thinking behind it. Unless it is just to destroy as many people as possible.

Karganovic: I think that destroying people is something that occurs naturally when you undertake such a brutal operation which aims only at achieving a certain political effect and doesn’t ask about the human cost. So yes, people will be killed, Muslims, Christians, whatever they may happen to be, and that is a huge tragedy. But to return to your original question as I understood it, Srebrenica in Bosnia has become a huge stumbling block to the reconciliation and peaceful coexistence of the ethnic and religious communities, mainly the Serbs and the Muslims. Croats are not a part of that because there were not any to speak of in that area during the war. So, by creating this narrative that Srebrenica signifies genocide of Muslims by Serbs, you can see how that makes it very difficult for the two communities to come together on any issue, and that is perfectly natural. How could you just calmly sit and have coffee with someone who has committed genocide on your family?

So that makes it very important to clarify what happened, not to minimize the crime – call it by its right name, put it in the proper perspective, and make sure that all sides are aware that they committed crimes in that particular area. Each community committed crimes against the other community and people should be punished as individuals for the crimes that they committed in both communities. And we should not try to impose on one community the burden of a particularly heinous crime just for political effect. And the political effect is pretty obvious: as long as they cannot get together on anything, you need a foreign arbitrator to keep them in check. So, Srebrenica is an example of how the classical “divide and rule” technique operates and in this particular case as long as Muslims hang on to the genocidal narrative they are never going to come to the same table with their Serbian neighbors and plan either a common future, or a civilized divorce, or whatever, although they can still be good neighbors, they can still cooperate and be on good terms even if they live in separate states instead of in a common Bosnian state. That is a completely separate issue. However, as long you have this burden of genocide that is not likely to happen. But what is very likely is that foreign tutelage, and foreign arbitration, and foreign interference in the internal interference and lives of these people is going to go on for a very, very long time and that is a tragedy because they need to seize control of their own destiny and to be masters in their own house.

Robles : Is there any realistic way that we can stop all this meddling? We are seeing it in the Ukraine all over again.

Karganovic: Of course, taking into account the local peculiarities, which they always do, that is roughly the scenario that is taking place in the Ukraine. In Ukraine you don’t have two completely different religions, not that Islam and Christianity are so completely different, in Ukraine you have varieties of the Christian religion. But people have been indoctrinated to exaggerate the differences and to downplay the similarities. As long as you brainwash them in those terms you can always use them as political pawns for your purposes.

You were listening to an interview with Stephen Karganovic. He is the President of the Srebrenica historical project. This is part 1 of a longer interview. You can find the rest of this interview on our website at voiceofrussia.com

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